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	<title>Comments on: “What Becomes of Us as We Read?”: Ashbery and Ethical Criticism</title>
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	<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2014/01/what-becomes-of-us-as-we-read-ashbery-and-ethical-criticism/</link>
	<description>Where was it one first heard of the truth?</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:32:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2014/01/what-becomes-of-us-as-we-read-ashbery-and-ethical-criticism/comment-page-1/#comment-1924</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jan 2014 00:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=7918#comment-1924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Mr. Ory,


Thanks for your comments.  I wrestled with this essay because I felt, as you did, that to even utter or mutter the word &quot;poetry&quot; with the more staid and ostensibly yawn-inducing &quot;ethics&quot; was to risk reducing one of the greatest art forms in the world, ever, to some dusty obscure and pedantic exercise in moral philosophy.  


I guess ultimately I agree with you, that &quot;poetry admits ethical criticism...in the same way that every human action does, not in a different way.&quot;  I would only add that, because something takes place between two people (writer and reader), that something has an ethical dimension, just as it has a very vital and very important aesthetic dimension.  We talk about the aesthetic dimension a lot in essays about poetry - talk about form, style, content, vision - but what does it mean to talk about that ethical dimension?  That&#039;s I guess what I was wondering about when I wrote the essay, How we talk about ethics without reducing poetry to non-poetry.  Nussbaum, for me, is good on this topic - she talks about the relationship between style, say, and ethical content, and she uses Plato and his dialogues as a fascinating example.  


As far as surreal poems not lending themselves to questions about ethics, I want to agree with you, but I do disagree.  Simply because reading such a poem involves two people, even the most decadent symbolist art for art&#039;s sake poetry can lend itself to ethical criticism (thought hopefully a robust, as opposed to anemic, one).  That would probably make an interesting essay, now that I think about it!  :)  


At any rate, thank you again for writing and sharing your thoughts and poetry.  I wish you all the best,


Andrew]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr. Ory,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comments.  I wrestled with this essay because I felt, as you did, that to even utter or mutter the word &#8220;poetry&#8221; with the more staid and ostensibly yawn-inducing &#8220;ethics&#8221; was to risk reducing one of the greatest art forms in the world, ever, to some dusty obscure and pedantic exercise in moral philosophy.  </p>
<p>I guess ultimately I agree with you, that &#8220;poetry admits ethical criticism&#8230;in the same way that every human action does, not in a different way.&#8221;  I would only add that, because something takes place between two people (writer and reader), that something has an ethical dimension, just as it has a very vital and very important aesthetic dimension.  We talk about the aesthetic dimension a lot in essays about poetry &#8211; talk about form, style, content, vision &#8211; but what does it mean to talk about that ethical dimension?  That&#8217;s I guess what I was wondering about when I wrote the essay, How we talk about ethics without reducing poetry to non-poetry.  Nussbaum, for me, is good on this topic &#8211; she talks about the relationship between style, say, and ethical content, and she uses Plato and his dialogues as a fascinating example.  </p>
<p>As far as surreal poems not lending themselves to questions about ethics, I want to agree with you, but I do disagree.  Simply because reading such a poem involves two people, even the most decadent symbolist art for art&#8217;s sake poetry can lend itself to ethical criticism (thought hopefully a robust, as opposed to anemic, one).  That would probably make an interesting essay, now that I think about it!  :)  </p>
<p>At any rate, thank you again for writing and sharing your thoughts and poetry.  I wish you all the best,</p>
<p>Andrew</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Ory</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2014/01/what-becomes-of-us-as-we-read-ashbery-and-ethical-criticism/comment-page-1/#comment-1923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Ory]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jan 2014 23:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=7918#comment-1923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your essay is very well written. Yet although I understand your concern for the ethical dimension of poetry, I believe good poetry is often &quot;beyond good and evil&quot; (to cite Nietzsche), otherwise it would limit its function to a sort of applied moral philosophy. Poetry admits ethical criticism, I believe, in the same way that every human action does, not in a different way. When a poet&#039;s work approaches a rather surrealistic sphere, it becomes difficult to assign a certain moral message to his poems. Many 19. century poets would write solely for the sake of beauty (l&#039;art pour l&#039;art). 


In my blog, I published a poem the function of which is not to convey any ethical message, a poem just for the sake of the mere images - certainly not &quot;neutral starting points for thought,&quot; but neutral inasmuch as it neutralises, in some ways, the reader&#039;s expectation to know better how to behave once she has read it...    

http://greg-ory.blogspot.co.uk]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your essay is very well written. Yet although I understand your concern for the ethical dimension of poetry, I believe good poetry is often &#8220;beyond good and evil&#8221; (to cite Nietzsche), otherwise it would limit its function to a sort of applied moral philosophy. Poetry admits ethical criticism, I believe, in the same way that every human action does, not in a different way. When a poet&#8217;s work approaches a rather surrealistic sphere, it becomes difficult to assign a certain moral message to his poems. Many 19. century poets would write solely for the sake of beauty (l&#8217;art pour l&#8217;art). </p>
<p>In my blog, I published a poem the function of which is not to convey any ethical message, a poem just for the sake of the mere images &#8211; certainly not &#8220;neutral starting points for thought,&#8221; but neutral inasmuch as it neutralises, in some ways, the reader&#8217;s expectation to know better how to behave once she has read it&#8230;    </p>
<p><a href="http://greg-ory.blogspot.co.uk" rel="nofollow">http://greg-ory.blogspot.co.uk</a></p>
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